Suzanne Nossel

Photo by Beowulf Sheehan

Every Friday, we discuss tricky questions about free speech and expression as they pertain to the ongoing pandemic with our CEO Suzanne Nossel, author of Dare to Speak: Defending Free Speech for All, in our weekly PEN Pod segment “Tough Questions.” In this week’s episode, we discuss the spread of misinformation about critical issues, how to educate both ourselves and others about it, and the recent controversy surrounding the production of Disney’s Mulan. Check out the full episode below (our interview with Suzanne begins at the 13:22 mark).

We just talked to journalist Jean Guerrero about her book, Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, and the White Nationalist Agenda, and the reaction she’s received. We’re now in this post-Labor Day sprint until the election. How do you think people need to prepare themselves for the onslaught of vitriol and online harassment like the kind that Jean has faced that’s going to come at a lot of us in the coming weeks?
 I think it’s going to be a very heated, sort of “anything goes” moment, where there’s a sense of desperation on pretty much all sides of the political spectrum, and there are people in our civic life who will stop at nothing to try to sway voters, intimidate people, spread misinformation to suppress the vote or win voters who are convinced people have their arguments, advance the perception that we’re on the cusp of a coronavirus vaccine. It’s going to be crazy days. I think we do have to brace ourselves for a vitriolic, nasty, falsehood written kind of discourse.

“I think we do have to brace ourselves for a vitriolic, nasty, falsehood written kind of discourse. I think for each of us, that requires being a more discerning speaker and listener. You’ve got to think about whether what you’re spewing out yourself is measured. Is it reasoned? Is it factually grounded? When you hear something that outrages you, you’ve got to think about, is it worth escalating this fight? Is this somebody who I can engage with? Is there something productive I can do to advance the causes and values that I care about? Is that going to be engaging on social media and raising the temperature?”

I think for each of us, that requires being a more discerning speaker and listener. You’ve got to think about whether what you’re spewing out yourself is measured. Is it reasoned? Is it factually grounded? When you hear something that outrages you, you’ve got to think about, is it worth escalating this fight? Is this somebody who I can engage with? Is there something productive I can do to advance the causes and values that I care about? Is that going to be engaging on social media and raising the temperature? Perhaps you can go do something else, like postcards for calling to get out the vote or becoming even a poll worker. So, I think it raises choices for each of us in terms of how we engage. In my book Dare to Speak, I talk about how we can back away from some of these firestorms that erupt over free speech. And I think this is a moment to really consider how we are speaking and listening in a conscientious way, to avoid simply feeding the frenzy.

Let me shift gears a bit—critics this week sort of unloaded on Disney for the live action version of Mulan, particularly for certain scenes being filmed partly in Xinjiang, where of course Uyghur Muslims have been detained in concentration camps among other critiques. There’ve been calls for a boycott of the film. Where does PEN America come down on these kinds of boycotts? And how does this reflect, more broadly, the complicated relationship between the U.S. and China right now?
 We have a longstanding organizational position against cultural boycotts of all kinds, because they’re seen as adamant on the free flow of ideas. So we would never suggest that people should ban or turn their backs on this movie. But I think it is a very positive thing that the film is getting scrutiny on the basis of Disney’s dealings with Xinjiang authorities in making the film. Because this is an issue that we documented in depth in our report issued last month, Made in Hollywood, Censored in Beijing, that has been kind of swept under the rug in the entertainment industry.

People have not wanted to talk about the kinds of ethical compromises that they’re making in order to secure Chinese investment dollars and guarantee access to Chinese markets. This film comes out as this vivid example of that, because of the abuses occurring right now in Xinjiang, with up to two million people detained under really harsh conditions. We don’t know a lot about what they’re actually facing because the Chinese are so secretive—it’s impossible for journalists to get in—but there are horrific reports of forced sterilizations, other forms of sexual abuse, mind control, and reeducation, and it’s a very comprehensive program of repression and intimidation of a whole people.

“For Disney to sort of proudly announce in the credits of their film that they’re so grateful for the cooperation of these very same authorities really underscores the obliviousness that Hollywood has willfully had toward the compromises involved in working with China. Because when you’re working with China, unfortunately you’re working with the Chinese government because they don’t really allow for an independent film sector to exist. And so, I think it’s gratifying to see that debate cracked open.”

For Disney to sort of proudly announce in the credits of their film that they’re so grateful for the cooperation of these very same authorities really underscores the obliviousness that Hollywood has willfully had toward the compromises involved in working with China. Because when you’re working with China, unfortunately you’re working with the Chinese government because they don’t really allow for an independent film sector to exist. And so, I think it’s gratifying to see that debate cracked open. And the hope of course, is that studios going forward who are contemplating such projects will really think twice about the blowback that may come their way, and about how to take a more conscientious and principled approach.

We’re not saying that there shouldn’t be collaboration with Chinese film investors and production companies, nor that American films shouldn’t be shown in China—I think it’s important that that cultural exchange go on, and it can build understanding—but at the same time, we know China takes a radically different approach to human rights and free expression. As they become more influential globally, there is an effort to export that approach and have things done in the way that they’re accustomed to back home, and that really contradicts the principles that underpin creative industry like filmmaking. So I’m glad that the issues that we’ve spotlighted in our report are coming into the foreground.

Lastly, this is a thing we’ve all experienced, in which you see a news story that seems outrageous, you share it on social media, only you find out it’s totally not true, or it’s exaggerated. Or it’s a picture from 2011. I’ve done it myself. This week, we’re out with a new guide for how to politely tell people when they’re sharing misinformation online. Why do you think this is such an important tool right now?
 Look, I think we’ve all done it. I was embarrassed when at the beginning of the pandemic, I shared around something that purported to be from a Stanford researcher that said more or less, if you hold your breath for 10 seconds and you feel fine, that means you don’t have COVID—it was a total bunk. I think we all need to be much more conscientious about this and also equipped to talk to one another and confront one another.

“I think we all need to be much more conscientious about [spreading misinformation] and also equipped to talk to one another and confront one another. The advice that we give is first off: Know your facts. If something sounds spurious or dubitable—check it out, and make sure you’re actually confident that it is false and you have a leg to stand on in confronting it.”

The advice that we give is first off: Know your facts. If something sounds spurious or dubitable—check it out, and make sure you’re actually confident that it is false and you have a leg to stand on in confronting it. If you are dealing with a person who you think can hear the response, approach them gently, politely, perhaps privately, in a way that doesn’t give the content greater visibility or necessarily provoke a back-and-forth that might just sharpen the polarization, but rather just point out gently: “Hey, listen, I saw something that contradicts what you posted on Facebook, and I just wanted to share it with you, so you are aware of the big picture.”

Consider the perspective of the person who shared the story. Where are they coming from? What are they worried about? Are they concerned that they may not get an opportunity to vote? Or that voting might be dangerous to their health? Can you affirm that underlying concern while pointing out that the information that they’re sharing is not well-grounded, but validating the motivations that may be behind their decision to put it out there? Don’t let things escalate—it’s not worth getting nasty over. Most of this stuff—people can get very dug in. You can actually make matters worse by forcing people into a corner where they affirm their position, no matter how baseless it may be.

And be a resource, find out what are the credible sources of information—how to share information from state authorities or the WHO and CDC, if it comes to COVID; or state Boards of Election or credible private organizations that are gathering all the facts about where and how to vote, what to worry about, and what not to worry about, and point people toward those reliable sources. This is something that amid a flood of disinformation in the run-up to the election that we each really need to take upon ourselves, so that we avoid being a vector for propaganda.

Learn more about how to fight back against disinformation and misinformation, especially as we get into election season, with PEN America’s resources including our guide on COVID-19 and disinformation, guide on combating protest disinformation, and ongoing Knowing the News media literacy webinars.